Eventually you're going to have to do things like buy a car, have a kid, live without roommates, and not exist off Taco Bell and Ramen. You can pack your stethoscope and check your baggage on a one-way trip to the upper-middle classes. My health is important to me, if I feel like the doctor recommends something seemingly off-hand how am I supposed to trust that? I've been an attending physician for the past seven years. Hey guys; I'm currently a junior in college and I originally came in as a pre-med. I am basically going to be paying $70,000 in tuition every year. “Most pre-meds underestimate the social life during med school, particularly during the first two years,” Dr. Beddingfield explains. Also... Great post up until this point. I would say the tuition alone is a red flag and I would wonder if you were accepted to one of the newer DO programs that seem to be popping up everywhere and are profit driven IMO. There are some schools that are moving toward unburdening students from tuition, but that process is slow and limited so far to a handful of schools in the U.S. In fact, there are some days you don’t learn effectively and it’s a wasted day. I wish I knew about it before I graduated. This commenter here has it right- there is a huuuuge time cost involved, and as soon as you've attended for 1-2 semesters, you are almost in too much debt to quit. The salary information you are providing is inaccurate. Being a physician will put you into the top 1-2% of society with low risk. Only 11% of vet school grads report having no student loan debt. Should you be in a position where your undergraduate GPA requires a boost, and your goal is to gain admission into medical school, pursuing an SMP may be a smart choice. She still wishes she went the trades route instead of taking on 6 figures of debt and she's a dermatologist pulling in a huge sum of money. One of the problems financially is the huge debt load from school immediately followed by residency salaries that can not service that debt load, leading to a lot of compounding. My 2¢. I have a friend who is looking to make some money tutoring med students before his first paycheck. Doesn't it feel fantastic that your life may depend on someone who is so sleep deprived and stressed? Not only can you can make more money elsewhere, but you can also work a 40 hour week, and experience life beyond, eating, shitting, showering, and work. I deeply considered going to medical school, but after being in the medical system, I have changed my mind. Home life - depends on what you go into. The standard time-management pressure of medical school is compounded by having twins at home. You seemed to be having some trouble there. She's 31 and has been in school essentially the first 30 years of her life, whereas I did just the standard four years of college and have been employed in some capacity since I was 15. Everyone is not cut out to be a doctor. Let's say a year or two of residency is okay, it still completely wastes seven years of a doctors life. I have a 3.6 cGPA and got a 501 MCAT first attempt (which I am retaking to improve). Extended out over a year, this is $57,304 that would-be doctors are missing out on (on average) for at least their first four years of medical school. Basically, they have experienced life. You just have to be aware of what it entails. So, if you set your sights on med school and think you can't excel and stand out and get a good residency and fellowship, go for it. My friend works 80 hours a week in residency and basically never sees his wife. Physician Assumptions . Long story short: high financial investment, high financial reward, low overall risk. Simple nurses (as in not CRNAs) beat out primary care and internal medicine. Social science majors reported lifetime earnings of $2.5 million. There’s a subreddit for it here. I'm with you on stem cell treatment. In terms of yearly income, this is true. Plus, an M.D. Now that im finally involved people are opening up about salary and the school actually provided me with cost of living #s. My loans are now calculated at $120,000. If you just want to be a doctor because of the money and job security, find another career field. I know you are asking from a financial angle, but no amount of money is worth this. Biological sciences majors and communications-degree holders were tied at $2.3 million. This turned me off from being premed, and am now considering an MPH or PhD. If something happens and you cannot repay the loan after 10 years (which isn't supposed to happen in that program), then the balance is forgiven. I'm just speaking to the priorities, attitude, and perception here. financially speaking, is medical school a good reason to go in this much debt? This is where you often hear of "cure the disease, kill the patient". Why? Unfortunately, you have to deal with dumb asses who think they know more than you in most fields. My new insurance company, Humana, does this. If you live responsibly after you finish your residency (live like a student for a few years after your residency), you'll pay off the debt just fine. Allied health professions like NP or PA pathway are very attractive options right now, offering great patient care opportunities with a great balance of reimbursement to debt ratio. I have had Lymes Disease along with some other more minor things and have been to roughly 30-50 doctors of ALL kinds in the past 20 years. My mother's doctor tells her she'll live to be a hundred. Physician salaries are lower than that. “Once my kids get home, I try to set aside my time so I’m devoting most of my attention to them,” he says. Just to clarify I am not just upset with doctors for not knowing what was going on, that I can understand somewhat, it is the manner in which the handled it. The harsh truth is that more than likely you are going to be a GP. So early this year I finally got into a medical school after working at getting in for the past 4 years. Ridiculous the way the medical field is structured. You are not going to get $250k-350k straight out of residency as a family physician in the vast majority of cases. Here are a couple things I have noticed: The average poster seems to fall way below the median for most schools. I get a free health club membership. Higher student loans. I CONSTANTLY ran into doctors who treated me like garbage. The payoff is even better for engineers, who the U.S. Census Bureau reported today had the highest average lifetime earnings for college-educated graduates. The main problem with this school is that it has an enormous tuition. More likely to be somewhere between $120K-$200K depending on locale. You can still make good money in other specialties, and I picked ER not because of scores but because I love it, but it is something to consider. Sounds like you might enjoy epidemiology as a career? Though medical school is costly, it can lead to a meaningful career, experts say. Many people in their lives make much less than that in 1 year and I am going to be giving this school that much per year for the next 4 years. ", https://studentaid.ed.gov/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation/charts/public-service#what-is-the-public. I don't have financial advice, since I'm newly graduates, but best of luck if you choose this path! Vu tries to get his school work done while Luke and Liam (now 5) are in day care. Surgeons can make that much or more, but 4 years of residency is not correct in their case (it's usually longer), and many complete a fellowship post-residency as well. A few people replied to me below that an MD in itself is a valuable degree. My loans are about 300k right now, and I have accepted a faculty position in ER. Yes, doctors make bank, but let's be accurate about exactly how much bank. Multiply the average lost earnings by four, and you end up with $229,216. More than anything, you'll need to have resolve to make it through med school and residency. What all of these themes have in common is lower earning potential for this generation’s physicians. My experience in medical school (and residency) did NOT feel as if I was "wasting my 20's". The pay is going to be cut significantly very soon. If you could seriously imagine yourself being anything else, perhaps you need to gain some more experience before you figure out what exactly you want in life. The time value of money is 6% per year. Hear about the perks of the profession straight from the MDs who know firsthand. Medical school also affects his wife, Minh Vu. I'm in the pre-med path (rejected this year though, so I'm grinding again -_-), but GP isn't truly a bad career. And even surgeons don't always start in that range. Good luck living like a student when you are 35. By Ilana Kowarski , Reporter July 16, 2020 And the increase in pressure that they deal with is immense. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd still keep doing this. It's expensive and exhausting. attract and admit the brightest of the … You can raise a family if you do income based repayment, and keep in mind that most residencies and fellowships are non-profit. On a … As if I really want someone totally burnt out and sleep deprived trying to solve life-threatening medical situations on my behalf. I'll jump in on this comment, which I agree with almost whole-heartedly. I always have wanted to be a cardiothoracic surgeon almost all my life, but recently I'm starting to think that living out this dream in America would be a fatal flaw. Even if you don't want to practice clinical medicine, most employers don't give much value to the degree itself without at least one year of residency completed and preferably all of it completed. If not, then you have made the right decision.". I know this is super disjointed (typing on phone doesn't help, sorry), but the point I'm trying to get across is pretty straightforward. Hi Guys, I wanted someone to listen to my situation and give me some feedback if possible. Most start under 150. I'm afraid to ever even visit him, because I know that I'd be using up one of his precious days off that he could be spending with his wife. I would say that I have no regrets about taking time off before med school. When you group arrogant pissed off doctors with misdiagnosis you can bet I (along with anyone else who comes across the same doctors) will learn to not trust doctors as much, if at all. My brother is a medical doctor, so I respect that the training is rigorous and standards high. For the 41 specific specialties, the top 3 (with family medicine as reference) were neurological surgery ($2,880,601), medical oncology ($2,772,665), and radiation oncology ($2,659,657). Don't want to take this medicine and rely on faith healing (then why the fuck did you come to see me)? From my viewpoint in the relationship, it's honestly tough at times...the 14+-hour work days that come in 7-day bunches, the tiredness and grumpiness, the physical repercussions of all the stress, etc. This comment is based on the assumption that doctors won't soon be in the same position as lawyers. The question is ultimately would you be happy in those other careers? The Medical School Admission Requirements (MSAR) is an online database that allows you to browse, search, sort, and compare information based on your personal requirements for every MD-granting, LCME-accredited medical school in the U.S. and Canada. Higher paying specialties have, for the most part, longer residencies and this offsets some of the gains from being in that better specialty. If so then it's more legal to go to med school then to fake a resume. I think the same is true for being a physician. Run away while you can. However, if you look at lifetime earnings, modeling a physician's income versus other careers it is considerably less attractive than being in the top 1-2% of society. The course requirements vary between med school programs. I had doctors diagnose me with everything from the flu to mental instability for "making things up" and wanting me to get a physiological evaluation (these came after the fever and rash went away). Not to mention unchecked tort law. If you love the idea of being a doctor then it is worth it. You aren't making that bank till you hit your 30s. Except she sleeps all day, is on a catalog of medication, and has a history of TIAs. Absolutely not! Then there is this national stupidity about not trusting doctors. I'm so sorry you're feeling so down about the job. nor is there a guarantee about what kind of an income I will have when I graduate. Is it still worth it to go to medical school? I'd say 50% of med school graduates regret going trough it all. Medical school is similar to premed undergraduate coursework in that it is science-focused, Young says, but the medical school curriculum more heavily … In my opinion, the education system is broken and Medicine and Law are prime examples of this. You may struggle academically for the first time in your life. Some vets do not find the return on investment worth the ongoing sacrifice to get a veterinary medicine … In his opinion, it's not the doctor's competence people don't trust, but the litigious system that forces them to cover their ass all the time. Some have questioned whether it is even worth it to go to medical school anymore. Just curious what are some of these other options with better returns considering time spent? Some of the comments further down touch on being stuck after your 1st or second year of med school due to the cost. I know there's a lot of bad stuff, like attrition rates, residency matching, and them being "for-profit." Non-traditional medical students can be some of the best candidates for American and Caribbean medical schools, yet they face unique challenges, particularly for older students when it comes to getting a residency. This number has been rising by over $6000 per year for the past 15 years. Most people I know who were getting started in the real world weren't exactly striking it rich at that age either. I'll be a general surgery resident next for the next 4 years after that. A year of medical school is about 50 ish 60 ish credit hours from what med schools near me claim. So even if you had $2,000,000 in student loan debt, if you can complete a loan forgiveness program, the amount of student loans you actually had to pay back with interest is much less than what you took out. Physician Assumptions . God, medical school is depressing in the US! So thank you for giving me some hope! In reality, these jobs are not easy to get without experience. What would make it "worth it" for you? Yes, theoretically you can try to get a job as a consultant or medical writer or in research. Just wanted to comment on your frustration about people not trusting physicians. A Career in Medicine - Is it still worth it? I work as a flight nurse, easily clear 110K a year, and work 8 shifts a month. The average medical student now graduates with over $192,000 in student loans, but with the cost of attendance for the […] At minimum, it will take you four years of medical school and three years of residency training. It is worthless if you buy it and don't use it. When you get home, you can't even talk to your SO about work because of laws against that. At least you may get to actually see Darwinism in action! Medical school is not just about the debt. - From someone who is in their Second year of residency. "Qualifying employment is any employment with a federal, state, or local government agency, entity, or organization or a not-for-profit organization that has been designated as tax-exempt by the Internal Revenue Service (IRS) under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code (IRC). And as the poster above states, there is no guarantee of getting a residency so there is very little room to fuck up during your education and still come out ok. Stay strong internet stranger, your work saves lives! If it was related to test scores, I hate to say it, but that likely won't improve over the USMLE steps 1 and 2, which will make it almost impossible to get into derm, oto, ophtho, ortho, urology, plastics and the other high-paying specialties.. not completely impossible, but very very difficult. A doctor told my grandmother it was just woman problems. We've been together almost a year now, and probably will be for a lot longer. Now this makes me very uncomfortable. I love medicine, but that is only 10 minutes of every long, life-sucking hour, most unfortunately. Then prioritize and make sure to schedule time for it. PGY-3 here. You can easily pay off the financial burden if you aren't an idiot with your finances (most doctors I come across are). Acceptance rates for med school are higher than for PA school. Today, the cost of attendance for medical school tuition routinely is in the mid-5 figures, with some institutions now costing almost $100,000 per year to attend. Please, as a ms3. I realize that a foreign med school not have the same sway here as a domestic one, but it's worth staying in touch. Look at the long term outcome and not so much on the loans incurred during school. I would also like to add that if you don't complete medical school AND a residency, you are in a really bad spot. Edit----my experience may not be the norm and it largely depends on what kind of people you are around and the location of your medical school, not to mention what kind of residency you choose...... Clearly if you are bright enough to get into medical school and if you are motivated, you could make a good living in a lot of other ways with a lot less debt. Being a parent is a lot of things but I think most parents would agree, it's not fun. Medical school is a high-stress environment with lots of exams, difficult assignments, and cases with life or death stakes. Should I take the offer and pay up? The time value of money is 6% per year. When I first got Lymes disease (classic bullseye rash, high fever, etc) I saw so many doctors within that first year, I learned very quickly that doctors were not all good, and was to take what they say with a grain of salt. If it's new, she wants it. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average weekly earning of a bachelor degree holding American is $1,102. Non-traditional medical students are defined as those students who did not take the typical path to medical school. But I made a lot of great friends along the way, and had some great experiences. Once you are in, you are in, you can no longer fail. Im attending DPT school. Not only is our economy not really looking good here in the states, like you said, people seem to have a growing distrust of the medical community. The medical field is a bad field to get into now. You need to open your eyes a bit and realize what is going on. By the time you are actually stable, you already hate your patients. It's not that people dislike/don't trust doctors, imo, it's that they don't trust the system and the way it seems to be far more about profit than about the health of the human beings under it's care. I remember one of my co-residents expressed a similar opinion one day and I told her what I'm going to tell you. You don't need 12 month subscriptions to everything. Share on Reddit; Print; ... the payoff will be worth it, and my school is doing its best to make sure I am prepared to face the challenges that lay ahead. Then there is this national stupidity about not trusting doctors. What specialty do you do? Not the future. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-10-10/engineers-beat-business-majors-for-lifetime-earnings.html. Also, the average debt of U.S medical students is $169,901 so paying a couple thousand dollars more to ensure you get into medical school does not really make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. It's all about what you want out of life. Around 100K paid out in tuition, housing, etc. As the previous poster mentions, money isn't the problem. It challenges you in ways you don't think you can take and it gives you the opportunity to find things about yourself you never knew existed. Let’s assume a student starts medical school when he is 24 years old, the average age of entering medical students.And, let’s also assume that after four years of school, he will rack up the average amount of medical school debt, $190,000. Your frustration with patients not trusting doctors is a bit misguided and naive and a bit arrogant. Family medicine, sadly, is renowned for barely paying enough to support a comfortable lifestyle with modern med school loans. Is it worth anyways? Yes. Over the past 20 years, the cost of medical school has greatly outpaced the rate of inflation, and medical school debt is rapidly rising. It's really difficult to talk to "normals" about it because a) they don't understand and b) it becomes complaint after complaint. There are a lot of other sources out there that do these sort of lifetime analysis that will corroborate that becoming a doctor != top 1% in society I remember seeing one of doctor versus nurse lifetime. Pretty accurate except that 200K for family medicine is definitely at the top end of the range. Get multiple opinions. There is also the public service loan forgiveness program that all doctors qualify for, which is you pay at max 10% of your salary per year to your loans. Because of this, you can come out of residency (+/- fellowship) more than halfway through your loan forgiveness years before you no longer qualify for income based repayment. Yes, medical school is rigorous and demanding, but trying times have a way of bringing people together. Med school is worth it if you genuinely want to become a doctor. As a physician of any specialty, you will make enough to cover your loans so long as you aren't completely irresponsible with your money. Less physician ownership. I wanna be a vet but considering my chances, i suck at math, chemistry and physics, those are required in entry exam. You'll burn out. And 16% of new grads have debt in excess of $225,000. Most doctors make under 200k so you are completely wrong. I know I want to be a Doctor. Probably the best thing I could say is that you should base a career in medicine on passion, not on finances. I am posting here because I don't have many people that I can get advice on this kind of life decisions and would like your inputs. Question: Do you actually want to be a doctor or do you just want a middle/upper middle class lifestyle? Loans are taken out at 6.8%. What I ask to you and to anyone else really if most of what you say is the case mostly in America. You say that you just got in after 4 years of trying- why is that? Yes! With that being said, I think the following types of applicants should consider using medical school admissions consulting: So worth it. It is cynical in many ways and that cynicism, that sense that doctors are just trying to make a buck and turn into High Society, is why otherwise sane people have some contempty or mistrust for them. Doctors at big hospitals work very hard and spend very little time with each patient. My one uncle was told that it was all in his head. In fact, you might only get half the lower of those numbers your first year. For med school hopefuls like me, it didn’t paint a very optimistic picture for Canadians. No worries though, I worked in the medical field and tore her a new one when I found out how she treats doctors. Getting into med is notoriously difficult. People don't trust doctors now because of so many patients are just flat out misdiagnosed with the absurd 5-10 minute meeting with a doc. Also, the average debt of U.S medical students is $169,901 so paying a couple thousand dollars more to ensure you get into medical school does not really make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. I'm giving it time to decide if it's worth it to me to pursue med school or a PA program afterward, since I'll likely be nearing 33 by the time I get my BS. Just wondering if anyone used to be in my situation, and if they ended up pursuing medicine anyway, if it was worth it, or if they pursued and alternative career path that was more rewarding. I get emails and mailings all the time. He died of a heart attack that night due to conflicting medication. What the fuck is this shit? Furthermore, some in the health field believe that a D.O. On occasion, I will lurk the pre-med forum on Reddit and it appears to be the polar opposite of SDN. It's not about not trusting medicine, instead as you state it is about not trusting doctors. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Isn't there that old saying that's something along the lines of one guy goes to med school. There are spousal exemptions for nearly all of these laws. It makes me so happy to see someone actually recounting a positive experience in medicine. Medical school is not just about the debt. This is a direct result of requiring five years of residency and four years of completely unnecessary college before medical school. As a student on this path I just wanted to let you know I thoroughly enjoyed reading that. This is one of our biggest weaknesses in our current system. With government student loan forgiveness programs, there’s currently a natural ceiling on the effective maximum student loan burden physicians can face. Hey I loved this comment. The insurance companies are in control and not you and me. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, More posts from the personalfinance community. There a a lot of terrible doctors, physicians, PA,s and nurses out there who do nothing but instill distrust and resentment in people and you are going around upset that people are not trusting you. Because our jobs are crazy and dramatic! They are the ‘lab’ your medical tests get sent to and the labs determine what infections or diseases you have. Let’s assume a student starts medical school when he is 24 years old, the average age of entering medical students.And, let’s also assume that after four years of school, he will rack up the average amount of medical school debt, $190,000. You are talking about today and today only. What happens to those who have the desire to be a doctor, but not the ability or vice versa. Finally, regarding finances. See what specialty interests you most, and understand that many med students change paths in their third year. As far as the opportunity cost is concerned, you just need to sit back and think of what's most important in your life. Loans are taken out at 6.8%. Only 33% of applicants were accepted to PA schools in 2016-17, whereas 41% of applicants were accepted to MD schools in 2018-19 and 35% of applicants were accepted to DO medical schools … I'm just about to graduate nursing school, and I've been looking into graduate options. You can't avoid life expenses forever. Your salaries are really not quite right in general and are too optimistic. This means that increased pay in medical school and residency is worth more than increased pay later. I can't wait until the day where a patient can go in to get a stem cell treatment at the doctors office that required invasive surgery 20 years before. Over the past 2 decades with doctors and ER personal I have maybe seen 8-10 doctors that were correct in their diagnosis or seemed to treat me as a human. If you have no interest in medicine then no, med school is not worth. So you really have to know you can stick it out through 7 years minimum of rigorous study and training. Student attends an out of state school or a private school with a cost of tuition, fees, books, and health insurance of $48,000 per year. Your career will depend on it, and your patients will depend on it. I don't think it's a matter of having issues with the science behind medicine, but rather the behavior of doctors. This means, you guessed it, everyone has the exact same plan: be a doctor! You mean all those doctors that are only half interested and don't really listen to your problems, and their offices are filled to the brim with product placement posters? I didn't go to medical school to become a surgeon. This is something that makes me very uncomfortable to live with. My SO is a physician, and has been an attending for right at one year now (it's her first job out of residency). It feels daunting to start so late and to go from having a steady paycheck to student loans. They're fine with the for-profit aspects of our healthcare system, presumably they have plenty of chickens and goats to offer in trade for your services. Basic finance will tell you that money now is more valuable than money later, but the path to becoming a physician is structured where almost all the money is given later, so the future physician can not pay their debts, or make investments. that all your peers that you knew in high school are married, have kids, have settled down, have traveled, and some of their kids might be having kids. It was, and still is, just that simple for me. They do it because it's fulfilling. Considering time spent before you get the big bucks (8-9 years minimum), the debt load once you finish, the hours worked, the stress, etc. I just started PGY2, but I am nowhere near this miserable. During med school the most burned out kids were always the ones that had gone straight through. I really really want to be educated here in the states, but for my career I want to move to a more stable country. Save yourself. Starts making the big bucks really late in life but the opposite uneducated guy gets into a trade after highschool and after a few years he's making 35$ an hour. There is no guarantee that I will get a job when I graduate medical school. Derm PGY-1, Step 1 260s, Step 2 270s. Currently, American doctors are the highest paid in the world. Thanks for sharing the good story. The schedule is 24hr shifts with a rotation of 1 on 1 off for 6 days with 8 days off between rotations. I went to become a doctor and to do a damn good job, working hard, taking on challenges, etc. Medical school is expensive. The whole first half of your post is detailed and probably very helpful to prospective med students, but it also reveals something that factors into the second part of where you mention the distrust for doctors. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22922430, The average American with an undergraduate business degree will earn $2.6 million over a lifetime.

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